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Mad Gene Vane
30th December 2009, 10:05
I've been reading mixed messages on NCSU blogs about fans confidence in Sid's ability to recruit because this years team isn't the most talented, and by year four many coaches and programs have those problems addressed.

He's made some runs at impact players - Hickson, Wall, Cousins, and Favors - but other than Hickson he's not landed them. Some people view this as potential that will eventually deliver us some top players.

Others point to the recruits we have and point out coming close to succeeding doesn't make you successful, because as stated above our talent level isn't great this year.

So how do you weigh in on Sid's ability to be an effective recruiter in year four?

Derreck
30th December 2009, 10:23
Tracey Smith was a 4 star, top 75 player. Richard Howell was a 4 star top 50 player, Painter was a 4 star top 50 player, Scott Wood was a 3 Star top 100 player.

And let us not forget that Lorenzo Brown and Ryan Harrow are both 5 star top 25 players as well as Luke Cothron who is a 4 star top 50 player.

We still have a great shot with CJ Leslie as well.

People forget that recruiting is about relationships. While Larry Harris and Monte Towe had those relationships established, Lowe did not and it is the HC who seals the deal regarding recruits. Lowe had never been a college coach so we were behind the eight ball when he was hired. IMO, Lowe's recruiting has been outstanding considering, but that is my opinion.

We have some pieces in place, we just have to wait until we get Harrow and Brown before we can give a final judgment on Lowe.

LSmith
30th December 2009, 11:09
We are starting to see everything fall in place. Yes we are lacking in talent in areas but mostly on the perimeter. I really feel the freshman class this year will develop to be great by their senior year. With recruiting you have to balance out some good players that will be 4 year players with at least one or two McDonalds All-Americans a year that will probably leave early but hopefully at least get a couple of years out of them. This years class is all quality 4 year players. I feel like a JJ Hickson (clearly Lowe's best recruit so far) would have gelled well with the group of guys we have on our team this season unlike the players he had to work with the season he was with us. With next season's recruiting class we will have that mix of quality 4 year players and NBA bound All Americans. We will arguably be getting the best PG we have recruited since Corch.

Stephen Sparks
30th December 2009, 11:56
I agree Lsmith and Derreck. Aside from the CJ Williams and Julius Mays class, Lowe's recruiting classes have been spectacular. Hickson's class was a top twenty class and the class with Harrow, Brown and Cothron could potentialy be a top five class if Leslie signs. It's already a top 10 class. The Class with Horner was essentially recruited by Herb.

So two of Sid's three classes have been in the twenty. I say if Sid's recruiting so bad, let's keep getting those horrible reccruiting classes ;).

Mad Gene Vane
30th December 2009, 12:00
Until I see us consistently pulling in top recruits, I'll withhold judgment on Sid's recruiting ability.

I give him a pass for the current state of the team because of injuries and Hickson's early departure to the NBA.

The seniors, 2006 recruits, are a hold over from Herb's class and a transfer who blew out a knee, which may have hurt his development. Not much in Sid's control.

The 2007 class - those who are still here and healthy - are producing, but the injuries to Johnny Thomas really does create a hole at SF, which we are trying to fill with freshman Scott Wood. The early departure of Hickson is what it is. The career ending injury to big Lew again is what it is. He may have developed into a serviceable player. Johnson was a bad use of a scholarship, but he's not with us anymore.

The 2008 class seems to be the weak link on the team. A couple of guys who played well in high school, committed early, but never really "blew up" to become top prospects coming out of high school and right now are role players asked to be starters / contributers. Maybe, like Javi and Smith, they'll develop as juniors, but right now they aren't knocking my socks off as a sign of good recruiting.

2009 class has some potential to be good, but so far too early to tell. The one impact freshman - Howell - has been limited by knee surgery and missing practice early in the season and pre-season has left his game very rusty and it shows.

2010 - I'm taking a serious wait and see attitude with this class. I've seen too many "impact" players not materialize, especially as freshman, to make a judgment about guys who have not played in college yet.

Ishua Benjamin, Damien Wilkins, Julius Hodge (great 4 year career, but not a world beater as a freshman) and heck even McDonald's All-Americans like Scooter Sherril (supposed to solve our offensive / perimeter scoring problems) and Brandon Costner didn't develop.

Just being in the ACC (or any other major conference), I think pretty guarantees teams access to landing top 100 to top 75 players. The real leap in recruiting, to be considered a good recruiter at this level IMO, is consistently landing top 50 talent, especially the top 25 and top 10 type players.

If Sid can do this on a regular basis, I'll not have any reservations about his recruiting.

If we want to take the next step the 2010 class has to be followed by an equally impressive 2011 class and 2012 class. We can't have a situation where we had a good 2001 class and non-existent 2002 and 2003 classes, if we really want to advance to a top ACC team.

Prowling Woofie
30th December 2009, 12:57
Good points, MGV -

Long-term success for the program requires a continuous positive trend in recruiting - one good class doesn't make a successful program ! Let's see how 2010 finishes up (can we get Cothron and Leslie ?) and then see what happens in 2011 and 2012.

Would also like to see some of these highly touted players come in with some concept of how to rebound and play defense. Surely rankings are not just dependent on offensive flash ??? So far, I have been impressed with Wood's and Davis' defensive efforts; it looks like they were expected to play some D in high school ! And Wood's shot is starting to fall.

Overall, there are so many variables that it's hard to put a sure-fire stamp on a kid or a class. Does he/they have the heart to improve ? Does he/they have the talent to improve ? Health/Injuries ? Can the coaching staff provide the needed motivation ? Is the kid interested in maintaining the grades to remain eligible ?

Derreck
30th December 2009, 17:41
MGV, I believe that Sid has pulled in top recruits consistently.

1st Class) Dennis Horner 4 star PF. (only Herb recruit to stay)

2nd Class) JJ Hickson 5 star, Tracey Smith 4 star, Javi Gonzalez 3 star, and Johnny Thomas 3 star

3rd Class) Julius Mays and CJ Williams, both 3 Stars

4th Class) Richard Howell 4 star, Deshawn Painter 4 star, Scott Wood 3 star, and Josh Davis unranked

5th Class) Ryan Harrow 5 star, Lorenzo Brown 5 star, Luke Cothron 4 star. (CJL?)

Out of 5 classes every one has had at least 1 4 star player except one class.

I think the biggest challenge is getting a legit PG. Javi is starting to be that guy but there is a big drop when he goes out. Next year with Harrow and Javi as PG's look out.

Mad Gene Vane
30th December 2009, 19:46
http://ncstate.rivals.com/viewrank.asp?ra_key=1642

Above is a list of 2009's recruits rivals ranked in the top 150. Four star recruits on the list start at the 26th ranked player and the stars drop to three stars after the 106th ranked player. I just think there tends to be a big difference between the 100th ranked player, even though they are considered a four star player by recruiting sites and the 30th ranked player, who is also a four star prospect by the recruiting sites.

Just my opinion.

If we really want to compete against Duke and UNC, we're going to need players just as athletic and skilled as what they have, which means getting multiple top 50 players every recruiting class.

The 2010 class of Cothron, Brown and Harrow looks to be very good, but we need that kind of talent infusion on an annual basis.

Ken Stallings
30th December 2009, 22:31
The recruiting situation reflects some hard realities. NC State is simply the only Div-1A school in the nation where within 25 miles reside two other schools lumped in the water cooler talk about top five basketball programs in history!

Sid's current success would be considered outstanding at most other schools. Here at NC State, a top ten national recruiting class might be considered third place within that 25 mile radius!

As much as we can lament that fact, the truth is that we wouldn't want it any other way. We love our situation because with two national championships we still have to compete against two schools down the road with more! Hey baby, life in the biggest pond often means being big but not big enough.

The class coming in next season is already top ten material. If we can land CJ Leslie, it might go to number one in the nation and well, that means for once Duke and UNC take back seat to us!

Recruiting might be the least of my concerns about Lowe. I think he's got the track established on that area. What I want is to see player development. What I feel we have this season is the first time we can truly evaluate Sid with his guys, his players. Yes, Dennis Horner is technically Herb's recruit, but he's been almost entirely developed by Sid and Co.

For me, Sid suffered significantly for the malcontents of Herb's final classes. I'm glad they are gone. Harsh statement but I stand by it. The team's a bit inexperienced but I think they are already showing more heart.

Back to the player development question. I think there is already some good indications there. Javy Gonzalez might be the most improved player in the ACC so far this season. I remember when he was recruited it was amid a frenzied situation where Herb resigned and left us behind the power curve on that year's recruiting class. Sid was facing a pending acute shortage of point guard talent. The good one Herb recruited bailed out and I think we got the final laugh as he didn't become the NBA super star with Georgetown he thought he would!

Sid recruited this lightly touted player out of Florida named Javy Gonzalez. So far this season, he might be the most consistent and best player on the court. Javy's gone from project to star and he might get even better before he graduates. If Sid can get that kind of development from the talented kids in this year's freshman class and next year's then I remain convinced we've made the right choice in head coach.

Here is where I see the macro picture. I see Duke ebbing as K gets older. It would not surprise me at all to see K retire within five years. Roy Williams is head of the shed right now and that might continue. But, I think Sid might get NC State into the title hunt within two years. It all depends upon the development of these two classes and how long they wish to remain at NC State.

Ken

LSmith
31st December 2009, 11:01
Good point point about Javi Ken and I give Sid all the credit for Horner developing into a dang good ball player. Don't forget Tracy's improvement from year 1 to years 2 and 3. It is also impressive to me that Sid saw Harrow's potential and signed him as a 3 star before he developed into one of the best PGs in the nation.

The success of the class comming in next season will be key. If Sid succeeds with them and we become a contender more of the top players will want to play for him. More importantly if these kids are successfull in the NBA 3-4 years from now along with our program succeeding it will be just a matter of Sid picking which of the top 25 recruits he wants. It will be like filling the seats of the ferris wheel up with the nations top recruits. When 3-4 of them get off 3-4 more jump right back on and the wheel of success keeps right on spinning. That is what Roy Williams has right now that he pretty much inherited. That is what Lowe is working his ass off to develop.

I think the question of whether or not Sid is a good recruiter has already been answered and especially with next years class. The question now is what can Sid do with them and we will find the answer to that in the next couple of seasons.

avisocan
3rd January 2010, 10:14
Interesting discussion with respect to identifying talent and player development. Looking at Scout's rankings of Sid's classes, attrition or place and play later issues aside, it seems as if he's been able to maximize the talent with the available scholarships he has:


2006 Ranked Outside the Top 30 ---- Transition Year (2 Recruits)
2007 Ranked 17th (4 Recruits)
2008 Ranked Outside the Top 30 (2 Recruits)
2009 Ranked 14th (6 Recruits)
2010 Ranked 10th (3 Recruits).

As Lsmith said -- next year will be absolutely pivotal in terms of advancing the program. You have to get the talent first and then do something with it. We're just now seeing the talent infusion for Sid's system.

I am optimistic that the coupling of this talent with Sid's development as a college coach, will result in the Pack being more competitive in the ACC. Once that happens, then we can look at challenging Duke and eweNC for conference titles. Crawl before you can walk...

Mad Gene Vane
3rd January 2010, 15:03
I think internally as a State fan, I can see Sid's getting something done. My brother's a UNC grad and when I told him we lost to somebody - Northwestern maybe - he said why? I told him we don't have players in place yet and he said coach has been there awhile, he should have the talent.

I honestly hope we can get to the point one day where we can just "reload" like UNC does, which is why getting another top 10-15 recruiting class is all important for 2011 and 2012.

Stephen Sparks
3rd January 2010, 21:07
Gene, you hit the nail on the head. The reason UNC and Duke have been so good, they've consistantly had the nations top recruits playing for them and the results show. State hasn't had that type of success probably since Everette Case coached. Lowe has been able to lure some top recruits to State so far in his career. Next year's class is going to be huge. We're also working on some top recruits for 2012. I think next year will be Lowe's time to shine.

Mad Gene Vane
4th January 2010, 00:52
Of the three recruits Herb signed in his last class, it seems Horner may be having the best college career of the three.

Werner really hasn't done more than Horner, though he was ranked higher coming out of high school. Davis hasn't done much at Seton Hall either.

Derreck
4th January 2010, 09:21
Next year is BIG for Sid. He needs the incoming class to make an immediate impact to continue the success in recruiting.

To be frank, next season will be a make or break year for Lowe.

Mad Gene Vane
4th January 2010, 10:08
Next year is BIG for Sid. He needs the incoming class to make an immediate impact to continue the success in recruiting.

To be frank, next season will be a make or break year for Lowe.

I think this year is actually pretty important too. I know not a lot's expected out of this team, but surprising a few people and getting some upsets and post-season play will help win some recruiting battles for the 2011 and 2012 classes.

Derreck
4th January 2010, 10:25
I think this year is actually pretty important too. I know not a lot's expected out of this team, but surprising a few people and getting some upsets and post-season play will help win some recruiting battles for the 2011 and 2012 classes.

Agreed. We are looking to at least surpass some expectations this season thus far. We just need to learn to close out games like last night.